Kingitanga symposium on constitutional review

Radio Waatea reports the Kingitanga held a symposium on the constitutional review at its annual Kingitanga Day:

There is a full programme of events, including a symposium on constitutional change chaired by Sir Tipene O'Regan, who is on the Government’s constitutional review advisory panel.

It would be great to hear what was discussed at this symposium. Back in 2008, Tuku Morgan told the Kingitanga that Tainui (the largest tribal member of the Kingitanga) wanted a constitution to "protect Maori" with the advent of a New Zealand republic.

Comments

Anon's picture

I find it almost a misnomer to promulgate a New Zealand Republic whilst at the same time hold onto the concept of a consitutional monarchical arrangement within New Zealand indigenous polity. The Kingitanga movement for all intents and purposes is indeed a monarchical construct created during the nineteenth century in response to overwhelming imperial tutelage and lack of forebearance towards the indigenous polity and also the lack of cheiftain cohesiveness amongst the tangata whenua. The impetus for this Kingitanga movement was indeed under the behest of the Tainui people which has become generally accepted by most Maori today.

The misunderstanding therefore is the constitutional confusion of a transition towards a New Zealand Republic with a constitutional dilemma of the status of the Maori royalty. Should a Republic of New Zealand be considered acceptable to the indigenous people of New Zealand, and if so who would they insert their own indigenous monarchical arrrangements within a future New Zealand Republic? Conversely, should the indigenous people promulgate instead an indigenous constitutional monarchy by installing their own indigenous monarch instead?

Such a constitutional moot may engage the New Zealand people in a tirade of debate for and against the Kingitanga movement. The burden of an inception of an indigenous constitutional monarchy in place of the current imperial constituional monarchical arrangements as per Te Tiriti O Waitangi, will create a further barrier to the path towards self determination and the aim for a New Zealand Republic.

On the one hand, it is preferred by both the Maori and Pakeha of New Zealand for a graual transition to self determination and outright independence from imperial tutelage whilst the moot is whether it is in the best interest of New Zealand if it were to become a republic instead of becoming in indigenous constitutional monarchy? If it is for the latter, then the Kingitanga movement will augur well in the minimalist transition from an imperial constitutional monarchical arangement to an indigenous one. The only problem certainly is the Maori tribes which are excluded from the Kingitanga heraldry. The problematic situation of a lack of unity amongst all Maori tribes will mean a fragmented and drawn out process of selection, consultation and agreement a long way down the track.

The end justifies the means in which in all probability the Kingitanga movement may be considered not as a conduit towards self determination for New Zealand but rather an obstruction for the aforementioned reason.
 
Instead, in order to smooth ot these potential creases to the process of self determination and independence of New Zealand the cohesiveness of the Maori voice must be paramount undermining the partiality of the Kingitanga movement and the affected tribes. Instead, the path towards a Republic will offset the potential divisiveness of the Kingitanga movement amongst not only the Republican Pakeha but also the excluded Maori tribes from the in crowd by the affected Kingatanga tribal bretherens.


Tim Tufuga
Brisbane
Qld Councillor Aust. Republican Movement

Savage's picture

Hi Tim, good to hear from our fellow republicans in Australia. The Kingitanga is not a constitutional monarchy and we don't propose that it should become one. Some supporters of the Kingitanga have proposed a Maori monarch for New Zealand and I would imagine that this will be an argument put forward as the constitutional debate continues but we don't see any point replacing one unelected leader with another.  

The constitutional review is causing a lot of groups to look at the constitution and the Kingitanga are no exception so that is a good thing to us. The review is only happening because the Maori party made it part of coalition negotiations with the National Party.

I think the colonial construct within which the Kingitanga was created is something for Maori need to examine.  Hereditary leadership is part of Maori culture just as it is throughout the Pacific (and all over Europe). For us the republic is about hereditary leadership in public office, not hereditary leadership among groups that choose to define themselves in that way. 

Savage
Anon's picture

The Kingitanga was formulated prior to both your arrival in Aotearoa pre 1900's.  The Kingitanga do not represent a monarch! you said that.  Although there are similarities re: leadership however the Kingitanga is a different foundation to your concept of the monarch.  You chose to place them under the same umbrella, therefore you have the right of opinion to judge as you please.  I can understand your opinion because it is within your best interest as patriarchs of the monarch. The culture within the Kingitanga and many iwi are the people of the land, tangatawhenua, also known as the natives.  Out of due respect to all, a joint constitution is a reflection of New Zealand.  Not all kiwis want to be known as the "ALL WHITES" many prefer to be associated to the "ALL BLACKS" including the monarch.  Get it, I thought you would want to be associated to something that would benefit your individual needs.  Remember it is a we, not an I.

Anon's picture

And your point is in plain English.  


I can only presume you agree with the Kingitanga concept of a Constitution.  Or that you fully support the current monarch, Queen Elizabeth and accepting she and her family continue to live of the royalties in monetary terms.

Your thesis has no grounds because of the unbalanced approach leading towards misleading statements.  Facts will gain you credibility.  Opinions with no merit lack credibility.

And you point is in plain English.

LJ Holden's picture

Sorry Anon, I don't follow either of your comments.


No, we don't support the fact New Zealand's head of state is a Queen, or King, or any form of hereditary leader. This is the Republican Movement, we support a New Zealand republic.

Not sure what you mean about our "thesis" or opinions being used en lieu of facts... like I said, I don't follow.

Chair, Republican Movement - contact me online or call on +64 27 699 1350
Anon's picture

Savage's picture

So far not the most productive debate. Please be concise in your comments. Avoid being verbose and argue to the point. Feel free to add your name to the comments and avoid hiding behind your anonymity.

The Kingitanga did not exist prior to European contact (hence the name). It exists now and it will still exist and play a part within Maori aspirations when New Zealand becomes a republic. It will carry on as long as its supporters wish it to. The Republic Movement does not support any hereditary constitutional roles because we assert they are inherently unfair and ineffective. Some claim that hereditary leadership is an integral part of Maori history and culture. Monarchists make a similar argument with regard to the British Monarchy. Hereditary power exists in all societies. Hereditary lineage and history can have a place within any culture but that place is not within the constitution of a nation state.  

Savage
Anon's picture

Savage you sound very controlling, a bit like the monarch.

LJ Holden's picture

Savage isn't acting like a monarch at all... at least not a constitutional one, where a politician would be telling him what to say :-D


It's interesting that every time we seem to so much as mention the Kingitanga, it's assumed we're putting the organisation forward as a potential replacement for the Queen. That's not the case.

For me, the key difference is that the Kingitanga is a voluntary grouping, it's not part of New Zealand's constitutional government, although it is itself a government of sorts (which is why in part I don't get worked up about issues like tino rangatiratanga) with its own parliament, etc. A state is by nature compulsory (unless you're an anarchist of course) and therefore needs to be as democratic as possible.

Chair, Republican Movement - contact me online or call on +64 27 699 1350
mmb33's picture

You do not need to be directed by a politician to act like a monarch.


The Kingitanga is not a volunteer group.  Where on earth did you get that concept from.  They did operate from a democratic process, however the constitutional frames excluded their participation.

I agree that the natives who acted as a democratic process were incapable of making decisions.  The decisions were governed by a state introduced to oppose the principles of such natives.

So who is leading the blind.

LJ Holden's picture
Where to start...

You do not need to be directed by a politician to act like a monarch. 


My comment was tongue-in-cheek, but I was also pointing to the fact that monarchs in constitutional monarchies always follow the advice of their advisers... but again, don't read too much into this. I was satire.

The Kingitanga is not a volunteer group. Where on earth did you get that concept from. 

No, I said they're a voluntary group; as in no-one is compelled to join the Kingitanga, they do so of their own freewill, much like an incorporated society or club.

They did operate from a democratic process, however the constitutional frames excluded their participation. 

Not sure what you mean by this. Historically Kingitanga weren't trying to meld into the colonial constitutional construct, and today they certainly aren't.

I agree that the natives who acted as a democratic process were incapable of making decisions. 

I never said anything along these lines. I'd certainly never refer to Maori as "natives".

The decisions were governed by a state introduced to oppose the principles of such natives.

So who is leading the blind.


Is that a question?
Chair, Republican Movement - contact me online or call on +64 27 699 1350
Anonymous's picture

From MMB33 You tried to block my email, HOW RUDE. I get it that you want to hear from those who support your concept.  The reality is, the truth will be told.


You say do not read too much into your statement.  Then why did you post it?

The Kiingitanga is not a group that people can join comparative to a club/Inc Soc. That is like calling you an Aboriginal Women, impossible because the functions and culture are absolutely different.  However people chose not to understand and continue to compare a culture under the constitutional frameworks, therefore not allowing the true meaning to be represented but misrepresented. 

Hopefully you do not think you can call apples, cabbages.

Savage's picture

Dear MMB33,
Just so readers are clear. Not all iwi are part of the Kingitanga. It does not represent all Maori. Iwi are free to join or leave it (Ngai Tahu are not part of the Kingitanga and never have been) Tribes are free to not participate and do not have to acknowledge the mana of the Kingitanga. We started this discussion by commenting on the fact that the Kingitanga are discussing the constitutional review. We are interested to know what was discussed and what the different viewpoints on constitutional change are within this very important and powerful pan-tribal group.  Do you disagree with our description of the Kingitanga? If not please feel free to provide a succinct alternative description of the Kingitanga.  What role (if any) do you think the Kingitanga should have within a republic?

Savage
Anonymous's picture

MMB33 I did another test with my email address after being rejected, it appears I can now email this group again.  Thank you for having an open mind and allowing me to participate.


Ngaitahu are in joint ventures with Tainui under the umbrella of the Kiingitanga.  It sounds like you need to read up on the historical/current events.  Will leave that with you.

The issue is " whether we can incorporate values from the Kiingitanga in a constitutional review" and/or whether the values will benefit all although opposed by republicans.


Savage's picture

Hi, the website is automated. From time to time postings and comments are blocked or delayed. It happens to me from time to time as well so be assured no one is attempting to stop you commenting.

Ngai Tahu were just an example. The key point is that not all iwi are part of the Kingitanga even if they are connected to it and work alongside it (which all iwi do to some degree).

You wrote that: The issue is " whether we can incorporate values from the Kiingitanga in
a constitutional review" and/or whether the values will benefit all
although opposed by republicans.

Can you expand on this. Where is the quote from you used? which values do you mean? Also which ones do you think are opposed by republicans? 

The Republican Movement does not represent or agree with all republicans so it could be that you are assuming certain things about what we do and do not support.

 

Savage
Anonymous's picture

You quoted Ngai Tahu and now your saying they are an example.  The point is your assumptions/opinions are misleading.  That is an classic example of misrepresentation vs. facts.


The issue you expect me to expand on is not a 'quote'.  Try reading the issue again.  It is a narrow approach (succinct, your word).

Values, how about you research the 'broad values' that will favour all and let me know what you come up.  You need to have an open mind.  Not all values can be included because they are narrow.

I am not assuming about republicans.  I am reacting to your comments directed by republicans opinions re: original post.

LJ Holden's picture

I'll respond to each part of your comment below:

You quoted Ngai Tahu and now your saying they are an example. The point is your assumptions/opinions are misleading. That is an classic example of misrepresentation vs. facts.

There's nothing misleading about what Savage said. It's a fact Ngai Tahu are not a part of Kingitanga. Your response was that they've got some joint ventures with Tainui "under the umbrella of Kingitanga". I can't actually find anything to back that claim up, but even so it doesn't refute what Savage said. Ngai Tahu and many other iwi aren't part of the Kingitanga. They could of course voluntarily join, which was my original point. The Kingitanga, unlike a modern nation-state, is a voluntary grouping of iwi.

 
The issue you expect me to expand on is not a 'quote'. Try reading the issue again. It is a narrow approach (succinct, your word).

I have no idea what you're on about here. You've claimed that republicans oppose values of the Kingitanga, but we've got no idea what values you're actually referring to. I don't see what is "narrow" about asking that you explain your statements.

Values, how about you research the 'broad values' that will favour all and let me know what you come up. You need to have an open mind. Not all values can be included because they are narrow. 

Again, this makes no sense. No-one here has closed their minds to anything - we're actually trying to figure out what you're saying.

I am not assuming about republicans. I am reacting to your comments directed by republicans opinions re: original post.

The original post simply reported that the Kingitanga held a symposium on the constitutional review, and linked back to an article from 2008 where Kingitanga's discussion was on the issue of a New Zealand republic. From this you've assumed that we're opposed to the existence of the Kingitanga, which is totally inaccurate.

Chair, Republican Movement - contact me online or call on +64 27 699 1350
Savage's picture


 Hi , when you wrote "whether we can incorporate values from the Kiingitanga in a constitutional review" in put it in quote marks I wasn't sure whether you were quoting someone else or not.

Regardless of whether its a quote or whether its your own succinct comment. I have a question.

What are the values of the Kingitanga that you would want to incorporate in a constitutional review? 

Savage
Anonymous's picture

LJ Holden


Calm down.  I can hear your aggression loud and clear.  It is not an expectation for you to understand, the question is whether you want to understand.

Over analysing what I say, I thought your intelligence would cope with the reasoning..  Go and do some research like everyone else re: values.  Depict what you think is of value.  Meet the challenge rather than deny an opportunity.

Luckily I have not yet been booted out of this forum again. 
ps: who are you? what do you do.  This will help me determine the level of intelligence re: conversation and whether it is worth while continuing the matter in this forum.

Anonymous's picture

Savage


Quote marks is not a definite in this forum.  As already mentioned, do some research and depict values from the Kingitanga that you think would meet a constitutional review.  

Trust me, it may broaden your interest out side the republican attitude.

Finally, what do you do as a matter of interest.

Savage's picture

Given you 've not used your own name in the discussion (and we both
have) it seems odd that you should suddenly want to know what
we do and whether we are smart enough to discuss the kingitanga
with you.

Truth is I am also having trouble understanding some of your sentences and
it seems to me its because you're using some words incorrectly and/or out of context. You seem frustrated that we do not understand you but it is hard to
understand your postings because many are jumbled and do not make much sense to us. You can blame us for being stupid if you like but it may actually be because of the way you choose to write.

I am not sure whether you support the Kingitanga or whether you are being critical of it? You seem to have criticisms of  us but what exactly they are I am not sure.

It is probably best if we just agree
to disagree to continue this discussion. It is going nowhere fast. 

Savage
Anonymous's picture

hahahahah that is funny Savage.  Whether a person uses their name or not should not determine a valid conversation.


Frustrated, not at all.

Intelligence has a lot to do with this issue.  It determines the knowledge base and whether what you are presenting is opinion based.  I am not going to bother reiterating the conversation.

Please note, my participation has been gladly accepted in a more robust forum where academics continue to debate with facts.  I have noted that maybe neither of you have a formal legal background because the issue presented was in a legal format.  That is the narrow approach hence neither of you understood.  

Otherwise,  this is a boring forum.  Therefore I look forward to continuing the discussion elsewhere.

Adios

Savage's picture

We are glad to hear you have found a more robust forum where academics debate with facts.    

Savage
Anonymous's picture

Savage


Thank you.  All issues a side.  You seem like a nice person.  All the best.
I am a female, 42 years old.  An academic and professional.

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